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    Discuss any other game beside Wolf3D

    Postby linuxwolf 29 Jun 2014, 12:33

    Fascinating video. I can relate to this story.
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    Postby Ron 29 Jun 2014, 16:10

    Thanks for sharing, very interesting indeed. Could be useful.
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    Postby WLHack 02 Jul 2014, 17:48

    Somehow I can relate to this video... It has been about seven years since I started working on ToS and in the worst case scenario, it will still take years to finish it. But no worries eventually ToS will be complete and hopefully the next mod won't take that long to make.
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    Postby DoomJedi 02 Jul 2014, 20:56

    Yeah, I know how you feel :friends: . Though 7 years is too long even in my scale.

    I'm sure you'll release it eventually, and from what I know about you - it'll be one of the best mods EVER :) If mod is to be remembered forever - it's worth the effort.
    But maybe consider asking for help? To make your own little modding team? Even if you're so capable in all the related areas - it's just alot of work....and alot of time....

    I respect you as a modder just sooo much. And your art is...simply wow.
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    Postby WLHack 02 Jul 2014, 23:35

    StarWolf wrote: But maybe consider asking for help? To make your own little modding team? Even if you're so capable in all the related areas - it's just alot of work....and alot of time....


    Well, I have considered asking help but in the end I haven't for two main reasons:
    A) I don't want to bother people with seemingly endless task and
    B) I am too stubborn. I started this so naturally I should be the one to finish it as well (also I don't think it is fair to ask other people to try and fix this mess I call my main project).

    Of course starting a modding team isn't ruled out... If things start to look bad for completing ToS, I will greatly consider starting one. As for the next major project (whatever it may be), I think I will try to form a team to work with...
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    Postby Tricob1974 03 Jul 2014, 04:07

    There's a lot of things said in the video that I can relate to, as well. I've said this a lot, but I tend to overdo everything, so it's very easy for me to get overwhelmed with a project I'm doing by myself. My biggest project actually isn't overwhelming me right now, but it is long and tedious, and I seem to be suffering from burn-out on it. I might get back to it tomorrow, but who knows. :pardon:

    WLHack - It's good to see ToS isn't abandoned; I think you're already aware of how highly I think of that mod. :)
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    Postby DoomJedi 03 Jul 2014, 09:12

    WLHack wrote:Well, I have considered asking help but in the end I haven't for two main reasons:
    A) I don't want to bother people with seemingly endless task and
    B) I am too stubborn. I started this so naturally I should be the one to finish it as well (also I don't think it is fair to ask other people to try and fix this mess I call my main project).

    None of those reasons stopped you from collaborating with me on "Femstein".... :roll: :pardon:

    Of course starting a modding team isn't ruled out... If things start to look bad for completing ToS, I will greatly consider starting one.

    Or joining one, heh :) :wink:
    But we don't want to lose your special modding style and vision embedded into TR modding style, as Wolf3D community needs different style of mods....so separate team with you leading it is probably the best choice, there are still some nice and talented "solo" guys in the community who are probably hirable...though even the most "stubborn" TR members will agree that TR mods themselves differ one from the other so much....in almost everything. I'm not sure TR HAS a particular style...
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    Postby DoomJedi 03 Jul 2014, 09:16

    The main point for me in that video related to our current in-work mods is the mistake of "sticking to the plan". We want all original music and sounds - and we're sticking to the plan....always sticking to the plan...long after the plan is becoming absurd ...but we are schemers....with plans....
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    Postby Ron 03 Jul 2014, 14:37

    We should have more of a plan to begin with. Right now our beginnings always make the same mistake: mistaking having a lot of ideas with creativity. Ideas are added, but they don't really come from the core of the mod. As someone who has studied user interface designs and its various stages, I can tell that our proces is kind of a mess. I'm surprised our mods turn out well, but they could be better.

    And we have to stick to the plan regarding sounds and music, especially with sounds there could be a noticeable decline in quality if you use sounds from various sources. And music as well, as it might be inconsistent with one another.
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    Postby DoomJedi 03 Jul 2014, 15:57

    Ron wrote:We should have more of a plan to begin with. Right now our beginnings always make the same mistake: mistaking having a lot of ideas with creativity

    Well, ideas are sort of creativity...we just not filter well that much possible features with mod's core vision. Especially having such capable coder it's a seduction for any (?) modder....and a coder who is full with ideas at most times and get "burned" without such, or with too boring set of features....
    The main feature of our main mod was - LinuxWolf's idea. And now we can't see the mod without it...at all.
    Let's not be overly harsh with ourselves, I do think we're creative modders and we do show alot of creativity in our modding process, that's why our modding is so addicting to me :)

    Ideas are added, but they don't really come from the core of the mod. ..... I'm surprised our mods turn out well, but they could be better.

    Well, in other internal thread I did mention (as a reasoning to add certain later dismissed feature) that our next mod is...1-time mod (in many more ways than one actually), I don't think we'll make such mods in the future....not that it's a bad mod in any way....but it's a good thing it's a 1-time effort. It's good it's there, and it's good there won't be another one like it. Not only scale-wise, but planning-wise as well.
    Well...LinuxWolf has certain effect on our team and the coding scale/quality of the mod. For the first time I felt I was modding with only my imagination to limit me, with no coding limitations whatsoever, Linuxwolf kindly granted us any wish (even before we had time to rethink it :) ) and moreso added many cool stuff of his own. This was so tempting for me as a modder not to get use of (and also to keep LinuxWolf around busy coding cool stuff)...like I've written to WLHack in a PM - this mod is "DoomJedi on a stick". This is me just going crazy with my wet...wolf3d dreams...it's a one-time modding joygasm.
    But we gotta be fair to this project - with all it's mistakes and weaknesses - not only it's development was far better that development of "Eisenfaust" (well, that was not a hard challenge to be compared with, heh :) ) - I think we did show alot of creativity in it. And for a 1-time effort it was worth it. To "settle down" as grownup modder and make more...like I call them "boutique mods" - I had first to go crazy/exploding with "all you can code in"/"all you can eat" ideas and dreams of a "young modder DoomJedi"....just like doing crazy sex before you settle down for a partner....that was just crazy modding sex :)
    Moreso - that was a very good learning curve and conclusions....this was an important step in our overall evolution is a modding team, and our next mods not only will much benefit from it - but that already do now, they are already more and better planned and things are not a feature-festival anymore, but a much more "boutique" mods with core vision and features corresponding to such (which make it actually not much less advanced than "feature-festival" mods, but in a more natural and delicate/shy way), more of a form of modding art and not just hobby. B:NML is one example.

    But not also that - such 1-time effort was also to build an ultimate engine for "Team RayCast" to be used in all future mods...and it's not less important...it's 1-time big effort, but once it's done - it saves so much effort and time later, and you're still free to add mod-specific (core corresponding) features to it....but we gotta finish the times when each our new mod we reinvent new engine from scratch....scrapping "Eisenfaust" engine for example....

    And music as well, as it might be inconsistent with one another.

    ...not if we reuse the same music for more than one level.... :oops:
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    Postby Tricob1974 03 Jul 2014, 18:11

    Here's my two cents (Do we need to adjust that phrase now because of inflation?):

    Ron wrote:We should have more of a plan to begin with.
    I think the problem is more that Max is using a method that worked fine for some of his mods, but the plan needs adjustment when it's applied to some of the others.

    Right now our beginnings always make the same mistake: mistaking having a lot of ideas with creativity. Ideas are added, but they don't really come from the core of the mod.
    I think the key is more having the ideas gel together, and having the ideas survive the transition from initiation to genuine following-through of the idea.
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    Postby Ron 03 Jul 2014, 18:36

    We shouldn't be overly harsh, but we should have a voice that says something else than 'we're the best team making the best mods' in this team. :D And I wasn't referring to Linuxwolf when I mentioned that, in general I think Linuxwolf has ideas that stick to the core of a mod. I was referring to your tendency to have, at times, almost stream-of-concious style of idea spouting, which clutters a discussion more than it adds to it. You should distill your ideas a bit more before throwing them into a group, think about their functionality, and let go of ideas when the team has spoken out against them. Not saying we're not a creative team, but it also needs to be functionally creative in order for it to add value.

    But you know, we're also different people and in that regard, it is good that we have such different mods. Because Legacy and B:NML are miles apart from one another. But it's useful to create within different genres.
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    Postby Ron 03 Jul 2014, 18:36

    On the other hand, we're just an amateur modding team, so perhaps I shouldn't take the proces too seriously.
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    Postby WLHack 03 Jul 2014, 20:30

    Just out of curiosity, have you ever wondered making an indie-game instead of a mod? It seems we have all the talent needed for such a project here, but only thing missing is an idea.
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